Ellen writes:
"I have a 2 year and 10 month old son and he is very independent and wants to do or have whatever he wants. everything ends up in either crying for 30 minutes or screaming till he gets it. he does not want to go to bed to sleep at night and he says no we have to stay downstairs and play. he used to like going out to places and play but now every time we ask him do you want to go out to even places he likes and he says no I want to stay home.he does not want to learn to potty and he says do not put pull ups on me. he does not let me change his pull ups either. My husband and I are frustrated and need help."
Oh, yeah. That all sounds veeeery familiar (but through the lens of time not as distrubing as it actually was when it was happening). I remember that stage well.
I also remember thinking I was doing something wrong, or that there was something wrong with my son. Then I ended up buying the Ames & Ilg book about 3-year-olds, Your Three-Year-Old: Friend or Enemy. The name pretty much says it all, no?
(I've talked about the Ames & Ilg books before. They were written in the '70s by researchers at the Gesell Institute of Human Development, and they go into all sorts of little details of children's behavior at each age. Lots of what they say is totally anachronistic--the assumption that all mothers are at home with their kids all day, for example--but the descriptions of child behavior is dead on. I definitely recommend them as references to let you know that your kid is normal, but don't expect to get much current evidence-based advice about what you should do about your kid's I-though-it-was-strange-but-it-turns-out-to-be-totally-normal behavior.)
The thing that truly freaked me out about that age was that my son suddenly didn't want to go outside anymore. He really would have stayed inside our small apartment for months at a time if I'd have let him. It made no sense, and I thought somehow he'd gotten agoraphobia until I read that this was a feature of the age (and here I thought it was a bug).
As for the screaming, would you like to guess what Ames & Ilg say to do? Have the child spend as much time with a babysitter as possible. (Because often kids that age cooperate with people they can tell aren't as invested in getting them to do something.)
Reading that made me laugh, and laugh, and laugh. Then I laughed again. Partly because it wasn't practical, partly because it just seemed so Mother's Little Helper, and partly because it made me realize that it wasn't me and it wasn't my kid. Apparently many of them are just unbearable sometimes at this age.
What I ended up doing was sitting down and figuring out what were the exact rules I cared about (bedtime--yes, what he ate for supper--no, etc.) and standing absolutely firm on what I cared about, and allowing everything else from the get-go. That meant I never said "no" and then changed it to a yes. It was either always no, or OK as soon as he asked. After many arduous weeks, he finally started to get that the crying wouldn't get him what he wanted. And it was either that or just the passage of time that eased the situation for us.
So I'd say to pick your battles (probably you'll enforce bedtime and insist on changing his diaper, but give in on going outside all the time) and just know that it's a phase. If you can give him enough choices to feel like he has some control over his life it might be easier, or it might not.
Anyone have any amazing tricks for that age? Please share.
Something that might help is a kind of enforced choices. You give him only two options that he can choose from. The only options are either of the two choices. That way he gets to choose and you also get to make the judgement calls.
For example:
"We can read a book and then have a snack or we can just have a snack. There aren't any other choices but you can what you want to do".
Hope my explanation didn't totally suck!
Posted by: Catherine | May 08, 2007 at 07:02 AM
Yabbut (to use your example):
Me "We can read a book and then have a snack or we can just have a snack. There aren't any other choices but you can what you want to do".
Firstborn at 3 "No!"
repeat ad infinitum*
*well, not quite infinitum - she really did snap out of it by 4....
Posted by: enu | May 08, 2007 at 08:28 AM
My daughter is exactly this age. She goes to preschool 3 mornings a week--and at a parent-teacher conference in November, the teacher told me "I wish we had more like her." To which I said, "Really?!" She is definitely better behaved at school, for my mother in law, my mom, even my husband at times.
I do a LOT of what Catherine does--"You can have eggs OR bread and cheese for lunch" but if her choice doesn't get eaten there is no "dessert" (fruit).
One way that I've dealt with the screaming (which I am 99% sure I read here) is to say something like, "I'm sorry you're upset, but all the yelling is hurting my ears. Please go to [different place in the house] until you're feeling better." We also do that when she pushes her little brother--she has to be by herself until she can be safe.
I feel like I spend most of the day saying no and enforcing rules (playdough, markers, and toys with small pieces stay on the table; no wandering around while eating; no kicking your brother) and by the end of it I've usually had it.
Can't get her near the potty, though. She says she'll go on it when she's 3. I hope so. I really want to hold her to that. :-)
Posted by: Kate | May 08, 2007 at 08:39 AM
UGH! My daughter won't go near the potty either and she turned 3 in FEBRURARY! I also have a 3 month old. God help me.
Anyway, when my 3 year old is acting up I usually say "Do you need some quiet time to calm down?" Then I take her, screaming usually, to her room (or to a quiet place) and we sit together until she gets calm. We talk, very briefly about whatever it was she did, I ask for an apology, which I get and then we go back to whatever she was doing before.
I also agree with picking your battles and sticking to that. I keep telling myself this will pass...
Posted by: Christine | May 08, 2007 at 09:03 AM
February. Duh. I cannot spell these days...
Posted by: Christine | May 08, 2007 at 09:04 AM
Only slightly on topic--but I'd like to comment on how our children our better behaved for others. We had acquaintances stay with us awhile back--she taught preschool and insisted she knew the children in her care better than the parents, and that, basically, she was a better caregiver. I'll point out she didn't have any children of her own. My mother, also--who should know better--who taught 2nd grade for years and years would speak judgementally of how children would be well-behaved for her but not for their parents. To me this is a no-brainer--of COURSE they are better behaved for other people because they don't know for sure on some primal level that a caregiver will not strangle them. This is just one of those pet peeves I have and it is broached here, so wanted to comment!
Posted by: Rudyinparis | May 08, 2007 at 09:25 AM
Ellen, thank you for saving me the time and energy of writing practically this IDENTICAL note.
My daughter will be 3 at the end of this month, and she is simply incorrigible. This after months and months of me (secretly, quietly, not wanting to anger the good-kid gods) thinking, "what terrible twos?" We navigated (almost) all the way through two using Catherine's choices technique, with absolute success. Not anymore.
"Do you want to put your coat on or do you want me to do it?"
Before: "I want to do it"
Now: "I DON'T WANT TO WEAR MY COAT"
Lovely.
I did get her using the potty using a technique someone here suggested: wrapping up a basket full of gifts and leaving them in the bathroom for her as "rewards" (let's be honest, shall we, and just call them bribes?). Worked like a charm.
Oh, and my kid is a snot for the babysitter, too.
Eagerly awaiting the rest of the responses ...
Posted by: Jan | May 08, 2007 at 09:34 AM
Two things:
In the "pick your battle" world, coats, brushed hair, etc. can all go out the window. I can't tell you how many days this past winter my 4 y.o. daughter went to school in a skort and no coat. I would simply pack pants and a coat in her bag in case she got cold later. Funny thing was, she usually didn't change during the course of the day. Whatever. As for the messy hair, I often think of Moxie when my girl's hair is a mess... but honestly, sometimes it's not a battle I can fight. ;)
As for the screaming, I read once about a dad who had a child who would throw down over a lot of the things we're discussing here. He found that taking the time to just sit and hold his daughter would not only calm her but would result in his getting her to do what needed to be done at any given point in the day. My problem is, the tantrums usually occur when I'm trying to get out the door in the morning and taking time to sit and soothe my girl is not always feasible. But I thought I'd throw it out there for those who do have the time.
Posted by: Amy | May 08, 2007 at 10:01 AM
We've noticed that the bad parts come in waves, usually right before a half year mark. I started noticing this just before she turned two, and then it happened before 2.5, 3, and now we're 6 weeks away from 3.5 and OMG I WANT TO RUN SCREAMING FROM THE HOUSE.
So.
Anyway, about the choices thing, that worked from 1.5 until just before 3. Now when I give a choice-that-isn't-really-a-choice, she just gets angry and balks. One thing that actually has worked to replace the choices thing is to talk about how "we have a problem" and ask her for her help solving it.
Example: We have a problem. I want you to come downstairs to have lunch now, because we are meeting our friends at the park in half an hour and if we don't have lunch now, we'll be late. You want to keep playing with your dollhouse and don't want to stop to eat now. So, can you think of a solution?
And then she'll say something like, "How about you count to ten, and I keep playing while you count, and then we go downstairs together?" Works for me. I think she likes feeling like a part of the team, and having some control, etc. That probably wouldn't work for a not-yet-three year old, but it's something to keep in mind for the future.
Posted by: Dani | May 08, 2007 at 10:18 AM
I have found that reverse psychology works GREAT for my 2.5 yo. When she says no to something I need her to do (e.g., stay still for getting her hair combed) I just say "okay, mama won't do this now. let me know when you're ready" and walk away. She usually flips out and then I turn around and ask if she's ready and she usually says yes.
For the screaming I tell her it's not an appropriate way to show she's angry (It's just a noise I can't stand). I tell her she can stomp her feet or jump up and down. Usually when I demonstrate she gets preoccupied with the fact that I am clearly a raving lunatic and that seems to stop the screaming. If she ever is out of control we have 1) the naughty chair (thanks, super nanny) and 2) a closet where her toys start going, one by one, until one of us gets under control.
Posted by: Deborah | May 08, 2007 at 10:43 AM
With my 3.5 we have recently started playing "who is the mother and who is the child?" when she says "no" to things that aren't debatable. I give the catch phrase, and she says "I am the mother and you are the child" and I say, "The it's your job to tell me to go put my pajamas on" and she does and I say "No, I want to play more" and this role-playing interaction often helps smooth over the conflict. I don't know how young it would work for - maybe a very mature and verbal just-3.
Posted by: flea | May 08, 2007 at 11:13 AM
Okay, I am making a note to wean before 2 yr and 10 months so that I can consume alcohol before this period hits. :)
Posted by: Shandra | May 08, 2007 at 11:22 AM
Piggybacking on a previous comment -- it helped me to say to my tantruming 3-y-o, "Mommy doesn't want to listen to you anymore. I'm going to put you in your room, where you can scream until you're done, but you may not scream at the dinner table," or whatever, and then I pick her up under my arm, like a football, and put her in her room. Boy is she mad for 2 minutes or so, but then she calms right down, because she's no longer getting attention for tantruming. I also never, EVER make a threat I can't carry out, nor do I ever give in to a tantrum. Tantrums still happen, of course. But she gets it that tantruming is not going to get her any closer to what she wants, and the more matter-of-fact I am about that the clearer that message is reinforced.
Posted by: Shelley | May 08, 2007 at 11:54 AM
Boy, was this ever me 4 months ago--see here:
http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2007/01/qa_29yearold_sn.html
...and thank you all for your advice, much of which helped!
The constant screaming about everything, ugh. Things are definitely better now--it helped to just say "I'm not listening to you when you yell" and move on to something else. I also had to get past the false choices, which totally stopped working. ("NO, I don't want to do that OR that, I want to do THIS.")
I'm on my way out the door so I'll make it quick--here's what helped us:
-removing our attention/presence from the screaming (it's hard, especially with the DON'T SAY THAT, DON'T SAY ANYTHING variety)
-revising our boundaries on when to intervene in something she's doing--waaaay back
-asking fewer questions, i.e. "do you want to go to the park?" and replacing with requests "please help me get ready to go to the park"
-being willing to explain our reasons--that seems to work almost as well as the false choices used to, when our little lawyer asks a coulple rounds of "why", as in:
-ok, time to wash your hands
-"NO, I don't want to wash my hands"
-well, you need to--we can't have lunch until you do
-"why?"
-well, you've got dirt on them and if you get the dirt in your lunch, some germs could get in your body and make you sick
"why do they?"
-well, that's just what they do, they're tiny little things and they don't mean to hurt you, but your tummy doesn't like them very much
-"what do they look like?
-I don't know exactly, but shall we get them off your hands with the foamy soap?"
-"OK"
But probably the most important thing was getting her out of the toddler daycare program she had outgrown. Mouse has always been a demon when she's bored, and she's vastly better behaved now that her days are filled with more stimulation and exercise. I'd check on that if you think it might be at all a factor for your kids.
For the potty stuff, YKMV as always, but we had great success with the Elizabeth Pantley "potty presents" idea at this age. Basically a reward system, but you giftwrap tiny little things and wait for the kid to ask about the giant bowl of presents on the counter...I think I went into detail on another post.
Good luck!!
Posted by: Charisse | May 08, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Penelope Leach says that the one thing you can't do is change your mind once the screaming starts, since that just teaches them that screaming gets them what they want.
If it's not important to you, say yes. Say yes as often as you can. In other words, pick your battles, but win the ones you pick.
Posted by: liz | May 08, 2007 at 07:55 PM
And about the potty...MM was three and a half when he finally consented to try it. Mostly because his favorite teacher went away for the whole summer and he had no incentive to stay in her class (if he went potty he'd get moved into the next class).
Look around for reasons your child DOESN'T want to do it and see if you can work those things out, otherwise I've got no answers.
Posted by: liz | May 08, 2007 at 08:58 PM
I haven't read all the comments, so forgive me if I'm repeating something somebody has already said. I agree with Moxie about picking your battles. Once you have decided which issues are non-debatable, don't ask questions related to them. So, if your child's pull-up needs changing, be careful not to say "Shall we change your diaper now?". This gives him the opportunity to say no, and he is old enough to understand that something is a question, and will therefore assume you are giving him a choice. If he then says no, and you then start insisting, it is normal for him to then become frustrated, as in his eyes, you gave him a choice and then disregarded his answer. If you say "We're going to change your diaper now", he may still not want to, but may at least be less frustrated...
Posted by: Kathie | May 09, 2007 at 07:18 AM
I just want to offer that I was the one wanting to stay inside, because my 3yo had a habit of just taking off and running. This was okay at the park but not, say, at a mall. I pretty much stayed indoors the whole year, I think, but now at four she's good in public places and seems to understand the whole safety issue a bit better.
Posted by: Christi | May 10, 2007 at 02:25 PM
My daughter is only 26 months at this point so maybe there's worse to come...but she sure is negative about most of the things you all have mentioned. Diaper changes, getting clothes on and off, transitions from activities or mealtimes, etcetera ad infinitum.
This advice comes from my mother: just pick her up and do what needs to be done while chattering on about something else. I wasn't sure it would work, and also a little philosophically opposed (isn't it better and more respectful to give information about what's going to happen?) --but I tried it today and was ASTOUNDED. It works for now!
Posted by: lydia | May 11, 2007 at 12:36 AM
I've come across this website when I googled "appropriate toddler behaviour, 3 years". Seems they all are a bit troublesome at this age of increasing self awareness so I'm not worried about it. What astounded me though is the number of moms talking about 2,5 to over 3 year olds still in nappies. I have started both my kids at 8 months on the potty and my 18 month old has not made a "poo" in her nappy since she is about a year old. She tells me when she needs to go and I put her on. She's been on the big toilet now (with a smaller seat on) for 2 or 3 months and my older daughter (3 years and 3 months) does not even wear a nappy at night anymore!
Posted by: Jalis | May 14, 2007 at 06:38 AM
I can't tell you how comforting it is to read all of these posts. I was starting to wonder if something was wrong with my daughter...or me or my husband. Mondays are especially awful. She hates the fact that we have to go to work/school, and dressing is like putting a clothes on a bucking Bronco. After a week of taking her to school in her pajamas or pull-ups, I finally decided that clothes weren't negotiable anymore. All of this is compounded by the fact that her weekend naps are poor (even in her closed room will only sleep for maybe an hour), so by Monday morning she is still catching up on sleep. I wish I could be home with her all the time, but we need my salary. And so it goes...I'm worn out. Get me to 4...I hear it's better!
Posted by: MommaOf2 | May 14, 2007 at 03:09 PM
I have a gorgeous, but fiery 3 year old who is still in nappies and I have to say that I find comments like this really frustrating:
'What astounded me though is the number of moms talking about 2,5 to over 3 year olds still in nappies. I have started both my kids at 8 months on the potty and my 18 month old has not made a "poo" in her nappy since she is about a year old. She tells me when she needs to go and I put her on.'
Good for you - well done. We too started introducing the idea of a potty at a young age, we had a few successes early on, then 3 weeks of being toilet trained, and now she's gone back to wanting the comfort of a nappy - screaming and crying if we put a potty anywhere near her. I have tried everything and asked everyone for advice. All that I've learnt is that each child is different and that it's the one thing you can't force. I'm finding it hard to remember that it's not that I'm failing as a parent. Especially when I read comments like that.
Posted by: Julie | August 16, 2007 at 04:46 AM
I love football
Posted by: supra shoes | November 07, 2010 at 07:47 PM
Very nice and helpful information has been given in this article. I must say that this is a very good post.adfsfa
Posted by: knockoff handbags | March 29, 2012 at 04:41 AM
everyone looked surprised, they thought Cheap Air Jordans Man spotted belly 100,000 troops on the mountain, want to get 100,000 troops to achieve this goal, in the chaotic? Li a place on the planet, but, Wang Cheap Air Jordans 's require large out they were expecting. Cheap Air Jordans secretly smile, in fact, anxious to get these thousands of troops, and determined to win, but, with their understanding of the nature of some difference in terminology, in the final analysis, all aimed , requires that they willingly, not under the agreement in force. the crowd because Cheap Air Jordans does not show the strength of the people immediately believe the contrary, their eyes reveal the suspect is not difficult to imagine that there is not that a slave state, but the entire ? Li planet, nor is it an era, but for generations to come, because they experienced the pain of being a slave, the heart is extremely annoying that they are slaves, hate what they become slaves and aristocrats, like the wild days Sen positions so that the liberation of slaves in the Mountain Man belly is already very great, but they never thought to liberate all the slaves, Heaven has hundreds of thousands of troops were able to use Belly Man into fierce mountain terrain to reach the dragon the two countries do nothing, but he would not dare to attack a nearby town, and their shortage of troops, not to mention a country, of course, the whole? Li slaves on the planet that is more impossible, and would like to have not thought about. Cheap Air Jordans said management is now the world's slaves, they understand what it means, that is, all countries with the world and against the nobility, on their belly Mountain Man this force, attack a town is hard, even as the capture of a town but also how, can be indifferent watching those noble slaves occupied the city, looked at them helplessly, of course, impossible, would discredit, this is all noble things, not that a state of things. easing their stress, wild days of storage Sen said: impressive, however
Posted by: Cheap jordans | June 13, 2012 at 10:06 PM